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CorvettesVBP...I
want to chat....and anybody else that's into this
suspension stuff.....

Dalannex
Senior
Member

2472 posts [100%]
Stockholm South
Dakota

VBP...I want to
chat....and anybody else that's into this suspension
stuff.....

12:01
AM 10/23/2002

I was going to email Vette Brakes and ask these
questions, but I figured there are a bunch of other people
here that would like to partake in the conversation, or have
knowledge to add, so here it is.....

I am going to do some suspension work this winter on my
81'. I was thinking of going with the Grand Touring System,
but now am thinking of stepping up a bit. What I want it to
lift the car a little, back up to stock ride height, but some
adjustment and ride/handling would be OK too. I am sitting an
inch and a quarter, or inch and a half lower than stock right
now and want to be back up to stock. Anyway, I understand the
with the composite rear spring I don't need a rear sway bar.
That being the case, could I go with a Rear Dual Mount
Composite Monospring System, and a Front Monospring Conversion
System, and run the stock front sway bar????? Would this allow
me to get my ride height back up, and be an improvement in
ride and handling over stock? And this front monospring
conversion, is it a bolt on conversion, just requiring me to
remove my front springs, and bolt it in??? Nothing else that
needs to be changed or purchased separately to make it work???
Where does it bolt on to?? Does it bolt onto the lower control
arm bolts and the upper A frames or what????? Anybody?????

-Justin
_______

1981 coupe, t-tops, PPG Deltron
DBU arctic white base, Concept 2021 clear, true duals w/no
cats, Comp Cams 260H, complete frame off resto, did it all
myself.
1968 Convertible, removable hardtop,
327, auto, currently a work in progress, "the next project"

UKPaul
Senior
Member

1116 posts [100%]
Blackwater
Surrey

Re: VBP...I want to
chat....and anybody else that's into this suspension
stuff..... (Dalannex)

2:37
AM 10/23/2002

Hi Justin
I'm hoping to do some suspension work
this winter. I want to upgrade the front springs to 460lb, fit
Smart Struts on the rear (but I'm waiting to see if there's
any forum group purchase coming up - HINT!, HINT! ) & fit .......... a rear sway bar! I
thought that a rear sway bar wasn't fitted on the '81 purely
to increase passenger "comfort" (but I could be wrong). I do
know that there's a least one person on this forum that has
fitted a rear sway bar to his '81 & is pleased with the
results.
As far as I know the stock '81 front sway bar is
the ideal size for street use & works well when matched
with a 3/4" rear. I'm tempted to go for a 5/8" or maybe a
7/16" rear (that way, if I push it too far then the rear
should let go b4 the front & give me a chance to panic.
There's so much stuff on the sides of our roads that sliding
off usually involves colliding with things like 500 year old
Oak trees ).
The VBP front monospring conversion
just bolts in, replacing the front springs, & is fully
adjustable for spring rate & ride height according to the
glossy in front of me (it also says it's a very easy
installation - I like the sound of that!). But, for a few $'s
more you could get the lightweight lower A-arms with it &
then you could spend a bit more & get the..... careful,
this could snowball!!

clutchdust
Senior
Member

947 posts [100%]
Welcome to Fabulous Las
Vegas

Re: VBP...I want to
chat....and anybody else that's into this suspension
stuff..... (UKPaul)

8:17
AM 10/23/2002

i'd like to start off by saying my advice is
worth exactly what your paying for it. i don't believe there
is much need for a rear sway bar on our cars. i say this after
i already spent the money and installed one. $100+ that i
could have spent elsewhere. i would agree that with the
composite rear spring the need for a rear sway bar would
likely be even less although i don't have the fiberglass
spring to confirm that. both composite front and rear springs
are on my wish list.
i find the rear sway bar makes the car
more 'twitchy' at the edge than i care for. this might change
when i install smart struts as i believe the twichy-ness comes
mostly from the radical camber changes from the stock
suspension. once i install the smart struts i will be back to
re-tweeking my suspension all over again.
i think you
would be better served by installing all poly bushings, if you
haven't already done so. some people complain that they are
too harsh but i find that they are alot smoother than old
rubber bushings that have crumbled out and left it
metal-to-metal!
_______

1981 L-81/4-speed. "the anti-rice" U.S.M.C. '90-'95 "Semper Fi"
"Will Race for Food, Will Win for
Money" Oh Yeah, I almost forgot, I HATE sprint PCS
visit my homepage: http://www.corvetteforum.net/c3/clutchdust

Dalannex
Senior
Member

2472 posts [100%]
Stockholm South
Dakota

Re: VBP...I want to
chat....and anybody else that's into this suspension
stuff..... (clutchdust)

9:39
AM 10/23/2002

Paul, I'm still working on that carb thing. My
friend has been kind of hard to get a hold of the past week.
I'm going to drive in and see if he's
gotten the carb dug out yet today.
I know what you mean by
the thing snowballing. This all started out as planning on
going with the grand touring suspension, and now I'm thinking
performance plus, but there's a lot of stuff in there that I
really don't need (I think). As everyone knows, I just
replaced all my bushings, strut rods, the whole bit when I did
my frame off, so I really don't want to take out new parts to
replace with new parts for a car that doesn't get raced, just
cruised.

Clutchdust, what do you think of going with a dual mount
rear and composite front spring, and a set of smart struts?
You have done some racing and suspension tuning on this year
of car, so I figure you should have a pretty good feel for it.
If I did this I would run the stock front sway bar, no bar on
the back.

UKPaul
Senior
Member

1116 posts [100%]
Blackwater
Surrey

Re: VBP...I want to
chat....and anybody else that's into this suspension
stuff..... (clutchdust)

9:47
AM 10/23/2002

Clutchdust: What size rear sway bar did you
fit? Did you find that you could take corners faster with a
rear sway bar fitted, or did it become twitchy at speeds that
you used to take corners at? This is interesting as I
understood that fitting a rear sway bar would let you corner a
bit quicker, with the car staying nice & flat. The
downside being that if you overcook it both rear tires will
lose their grip with no warning &, hey, it's time to spend
out on repairs (which is why I was thinking of getting
something under 3/4", so that I might get a bit of warning if
I start to lose it). Don't the better handling C4's have both
front & rear sway bars?
The Smart Struts are a "must
do".

edit: Hi Justin,
No rush for that
part at all. My road licence tax runs out at the end of the
month & the cost of taxing it over the winter just for
driving down wet, salt encrusted roads is about the same as a
pair of 460lb front springs! So it's coming off the road for a
while

[Modified by UKPaul, 5:58 PM
10/23/2002]

terryrudy
Senior
Member

1343 posts [100%]
Fremont CA

Re: VBP...I want to
chat....and anybody else that's into this suspension
stuff..... (Dalannex)

10:08
AM 10/23/2002

I would agree with clutchdust that rear sway
bar not necessary. I went through two and was disatisfied with
both. Finally removed it altogether and am happy with my
balance now finally. I have the thickest (I think) front sway
bar right now. I have a feeling that stickier tires (like the
Z-rated rubber I have now) probably influences the sway bar
decision. I am just not enough of a guru to know - only my
seat-of-the-pants feeling.

(my advice is also free and probably worth about as much)

If you want to raise ride height just go with 460 lb front
springs and your rear fiberglass spring with matched rear
shocks and rubber bushings. Should give you a nice comfortable
ride thats still way fun. I think replacing with all new
components says a lot for suspension quality in our cars.
Spend extra to get some nice quality shocks (adjustable) so
you can tweak quality of the ride a bit. Also I would
recommend trying front sway bar only and then add a rear to
compare them rather than just putting a rear on and living
with it.
good luck! Sounds like a fun
project.
-terry
_______

1977
Corvette L48 | 1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse Turbo | Corvettefaq.com

TedH
Senior
Member

2032 posts [100%]
Tampa FL

Re: VBP...I want to
chat....and anybody else that's into this suspension
stuff..... (Dalannex)

10:18
AM 10/23/2002

I'd go with replacement (coil) springs up front
and a fiberglass mono spring out back. Also, if your vette is
riding too low (in back), you can always adjust the leaf
spring end bolts to raise the rear some. I don't recall you
mentioning if the car is low all around or just in the
rear.... sorry.

I have smart struts in the rear with stock metal leaf
spring, sway bar and stock length spring end bolts. Very
stable for cruising. No plans for autocross... Stock coil
springs up front. rubber bushings all around (except for the
poly on the smart struts in rear).

P.S. The rubber bushing kit (complete front end with tie
rods/ends, ball joints, etc.) and rear poly smart struts are
vrom VB&P. Very happy with the quality. Should last
another 15 years...

[Modified by TedH, 1:19 PM
10/23/2002]
_______

TedH
'80 Garnett Red
Metallic/Pearl Base Coupe & '01 Pewter Coupe - Always
Waving!!!

clutchdust
Senior
Member

947 posts [100%]
Welcome to Fabulous Las
Vegas

Re: VBP...I want to
chat....and anybody else that's into this suspension
stuff..... (terryrudy)

10:40
AM 10/23/2002

once again, since you asked, i will post my
impressions which have no verifiable statistics to back up.

the problem with the c-3 that makes the rear bar
inadvisable is the large, relatively unsupported length of
spagetti strenght frame between the front and center
cross-members. with soft springs and mild bars, a rear bar may
be a seemingly noticable improvement. however, once you
stiffen things up a bit, the flex in the frame becomes
PAINFULLY apparent. my current combination consist of 460#
front springs (cut down one inch), a 330# steel spring in the
rear, also lowered. konis all the way around (not particularly
recommended) with a 1-1/8" front bar and a 5/8" rear bar. this
has resulted in the softest part of my suspension being that
part of the frame. whenever the frame is acting as a
suspension component, bad things happen.
last track day i
did i cracked my windshield from one side to the other, from
frame flex. not good.
keep in mind, i live for track days
so my impressions are from my experience of driving a c-3 at
the edge.
i'm trying to figure out a decent way to gusset
the frame without creating a whole 'nother set of headaches
like the c-4 convertibles x-brace but clearances seem to be
the biggest problem right now.
i don't think i would get
much argument even from engineers that a car will feel and
handle substantially better with a softer suspension and
stiffer frame (e.g. C-5). if it's possible for you, i think
that you would get more benifit from having the frame beads
solid welded, even just on the bottom (accesible w/o actually
removing the body). that is high on my 'to-do' list, although
i understand it sounds awefully extreme for a street
car.
if you do choose to get a rear anti-sway bar, i highly
recommend the addco as it has a great deal of
adjustability.
i haven't disconnected mine but for a street
setting, i use the supplied spring spacer to give it a little
play. sometimes i will run the supplied solid spacer on track
days when i'm running R-compound tires since they do bite
harder and not as prone to snap oversteer.
i am anxious to
get the $ to run the composite front and rear springs. it is
my understanding that they are more linear than a steel
spring, not to mention substantially lighter. it's got to be a
good system since they stuck with it through the current c-5
design. right now though, smart struts are higher on the list,
but barely.

Dalannex
Senior
Member

2472 posts [100%]
Stockholm South
Dakota

Re: VBP...I want to
chat....and anybody else that's into this suspension
stuff..... (TedH)

10:49
AM 10/23/2002

My car is low all around. It is equally low on
all 4 corners. For some reason the car has a 9 leaf steel rear
spring, which I thought shouldn't be for an 81', so somebody
must have replaced it sometime. If I were to go with new coils
they would be the 460lb, what rear spring would I use if I
were going composite? There are 300, 330, 360, and 420lb.
springs. I see the 9 leaf steel that I was considering in the
grand touring system is a 190lb..????? I was told by VBP that
the Grand Touring system would be perfect for what I want, and
you guys are kind of echoing that, but could someone explain
to me the rating differences??? Even the smallest composite
spring, the 300lbs/in. is a considerable jump over the 190
steel. What's up with that???

terryrudy
Senior
Member

1343 posts [100%]
Fremont CA

Re: VBP...I want to
chat....and anybody else that's into this suspension
stuff..... (clutchdust)

1:34
PM 10/23/2002

clutchdust, somewhat high on my list is a 4-pt
rollbar. Is that an incorrect assumption to make that this
would cure my spaghetti frame? If so, maybe I need to do the
welding as you mentioned
instead.
thanks
-terry
_______

1977
Corvette L48 | 1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse Turbo | Corvettefaq.com

Turbo-Jet
Senior
Member

2173 posts [100%]
Victoria BC

Re: VBP...I want to
chat....and anybody else that's into this suspension
stuff..... (terryrudy)

1:57
PM 10/23/2002

Here are the basics:

Symptoms & Solutions

Entry Understeer - Increase the rebound of rear shocks.
Decrease the
bump of front shocks. Increase the rear brake
bias. Brake earlier.

Entry Oversteer - Decrease the rebound of rear shocks.
Increase the
bump of front shocks. Decrease the rear brake
bias.

Steady State Understeer - Stiffen rear spring and/or
anti-roll bar.
Soften the front springs and/or anti-roll
bar.

Steady State Oversteer - Stiffen front spring and/or
anti-roll bar.
Soften the rear springs and/or anti-roll
bar.

Exit Understeer - Increase rebound of front shocks.
Decrease bump of
rear shocks. Stiffen rear
springs/anti-roll bar. Soften front
springs/anti-roll bar.

Exit Oversteer - Decrease rebound of front shocks. Increase
bump of
rear shocks. Soften rear springs/anti-roll bar.
Stiffen front
springs/anti-roll bar.

Car is slow to respond to driver's input - Stiffen the car
by springs,
anti-rollbars, and shocks. Increase tire
inflation pressure.

car hops over the bump - Soften the car. Decrease tire
inflation
pressure.

As you can see, changing one thing can alter the all three
stages of
the handling. You will have to make a compromise
that best suits to
your requirement. There are also more
variables such as ride height
of the vehicle, wheel
alignment, tires, driving style, corss weight,
etc., that
can alter the handling of a
vehicle.

_______

Cam Grant

1972 LS5 M21 3.55:1 Targa Blue
Photo Gallery

UKPaul
Senior
Member

1116 posts [100%]
Blackwater
Surrey

Re: VBP...I want to
chat....and anybody else that's into this suspension
stuff..... (clutchdust)

3:22
AM 10/24/2002

Clutchdust, Good info
What don't you like about the Konis (I
was thinking of fitting them to mine)? Would they be OK for
normal road use & do you know if there's a different
version for the rear when running a composite spring? And to
really push my luck do you know the Koni part numbers (because
Koni themselves don't seem to, or they've got a Corporate
policy of ignoring customer
enquiries)?
Thanks
Paul

clutchdust
Senior
Member

947 posts [100%]
Welcome to Fabulous Las
Vegas

Re: VBP...I want to
chat....and anybody else that's into this suspension
stuff..... (UKPaul)

8:53
AM 10/24/2002

terry, i'm planning on installing a roll hoop
in mine shortly, i will let you know if i can tell a
difference. i don't expect to notice an improvement since i
will be tightening a portion of the frame that is subjected to
less force and is inherently stiffer anyway due to several
crossmembers in that portion of the car. actually, i expect
that the syptoms will worsen as what forces were being
absorbed by the frame aft of the kick-ups will now be
transmitted to that same expanse of unsupported frame.
paul, i don't care for the konis
because the ones i bought (from summit racing) are supposedly
five way adjustable. i have only found two noticeable
settings: hard and really freakin hard. i have heard good
things about bilsteins and plan to go that way when the konis
have expired. there may be a softer set of konis for the c-3
but i do not know for sure. my impression of konis only
extends to the one set i've purchased for my car. others might
have differing impressions.
one thing i forgot to mention
in my previous post is the spreader bar that VB has for the
c-3 is a definite improvement and i recommend
that.

Gator81
Senior
Member

1510 posts [100%]
Ogden, UT
84403

Re: VBP...I want to
chat....and anybody else that's into this suspension
stuff..... (UKPaul)

9:21
AM 10/24/2002

Hey, Paul and the rest of you Gentlemen!

Here's my experience with the '81 suspension. So far, I
couldn't be happier, though I have little expectation of
"swaying" anyone's opinion...

First, you can't evaluate bars without understanding your
springs, because the bars are essentially a modification of
the spring system. For cars with rather outdated suspensions
like ours (designed back in about 1961-62, first sold in
1963), the best (just my opinion!) overall compromise in
handling will come from springs of moderate stiffness combined
with bars of significantly greater relative stiffness. This
has a lot to do with the road conditions.

If you're running on a smooth track you go with stiffer
springs to minimize the dive you get upon hard braking and its
resultant change in front wheel alignment.

But when you get off that smooth track and onto real
streets, and you dive into a corner running hot, those stiff
front springs will bounce you right into the ditch, nose
first. Bumpy roads require spring compliance. So it's a
compromise of compliance for bumps versus steady geometry
under braking. Stock C3 springs (about 293 lbs per inch of
compression) are pretty soft; they will allow a lot of camber
change if you brake hard into a hot corner. F41 springs (550
lbs per inch) are rather stiff; they were the choice of
Corvette engineers back in the 1960's for Corvettes that were
headed to the track. The Grand Touring spring offered by Vette
Brakes comes in between at 460 lbs per inch. Those are what I
put on my car, and I am very pleased with the results. In
combination with the stock 1.125" front sway bar, the car
handles wonderfully. It still has sufficient compliance for
any real road corner I want to take with "enthusiasm", and the
ride is just fine, but there is noticeably less brake dive. I
can see that I would probably get more improvement in handling
with the F41 springs, but I believe the ride harshness penalty
would be too great.

Of course, the front and rear need to be matched up if the
car is going to ride and handle well. The stock rear spring
(9-leaf steel) is about 300 lbs per inch of compression, which
is very soft. The F41 package spring would be the 7-leaf steel
spring, which is around 360 lbs per inch, and is pretty stiff.
Again, Vette Brakes recommended their in-between spring to me-
a 330 lb per inch composite monospring. They particularly
recommend the 330 rear spring in combination with the 460 lb
front coils. That's the package I got. VB also sells a 420
lb/inch monospring for racing. It would rattle your teeth out
on real roads, I think.

I also went with the .750" rear sway bar, in combination
with that 330 composite spring (plus the Smart Struts, a
wonderful addition!). Given the 4 major components (front
& rear springs, front & rear bars), there is probably
less agreement among the Vette guys I talked to on the rear
bar than on the other 3 components. Again, VB offers 3 flavors
of rear bars: .625", .750", and .875". They recommended the
.750" rear bar for me in combination with the 330 rear spring,
the 460 front springs, and the 1.125" front bar. It's your
classic "three-quarter race" setup; much, much improved over
stock, but a fairly small penalty in ride harshness.

In addition to the springs, bars, and struts, I also
changed out every rubber bushing for new poly parts, replaced
the trailing arms, replaced or rebuilt every front suspension
and steering linkage piece, rebuilt the brakes, and installed
new Pirelli Scorpion Zero V-rated tires. It all helps!

I believe the biggest single change in cornering behavior
for my car is due to the .750" rear bar, because in stock form
there was no bar at all. Without the bar (and with stock
springs and front bar) the rear of the car would come loose
one tire at a time in a hot corner, with lots of body roll.
The inside tire would lift and change camber a lot, but the
outside tire would maintain traction until you cranked in more
speed or turn angle. Then the outside tire would start to
slip, and due to its significant camber change, you would hear
it squeal as it gradually lost its traction. In other words,
loss of rear traction in a corner is something that started
fairly early, say around .6 G or so (I'm guessing!!) and as
you dialed up the speed and/or angle to push maybe .75 G you
could feel the body roll increasing and the traction
decreasing until the rear finally slid out.

With the new springs and bars, it behaves very differently.
As you push it harder and harder in turns, the car stays very
nearly level and there is no squealing, until you get to that
"limit" where both tires lose traction together, and rather
suddenly, at (again, I'm guessing!) maybe .8 or .85 G, maybe
more. So, once again, we have a compromise. The old setup was
very forgiving, losing traction gradually and predictably -
you could easily tell when you were on the edge, and you could
ease off and pull it back in. But the overall performance was
just not satisfying - what's the point in those big fat tires
and all that independent suspension gear if you can only pull
.6 or .7 G's? The new setup will definitely allow me to pull
very real increases in cornering G's, but it is NOT forgiving.
By the time you realize you have hit the limit, your butt is
in the ditch. I've had a couple of close calls already. The is
very, very little margin. But that's OK with me. It gives me a
good excuse to go find a safe place to play (like an autocross
course or a deserted parking lot) and see just how it feels
when it goes a little too far. I think I just need to learn to
recognize the signals.

Because of other issues (carb problems, and a suspected bad
U-joint or wheel bearing, along with a broken speedometer) and
no time to fix them, I haven't taken the time this summer to
really push the car through some serious corners and find out
exactly where that limit is. But the winter is upon us, and
the time to work on the car will come soon. Then next spring,
we'll spend some time learning about how this thing really
behaves when pushed hard!

terryrudy
Senior
Member

1343 posts [100%]
Fremont CA

Re: VBP...I want to
chat....and anybody else that's into this suspension
stuff..... (Gator81)

9:31
AM 10/24/2002

clutchdust - Yowza. I didn't think about that.
I will be AWAITING your results quite anxiously then, after
you get your rollbar in.

Gator - great info. Thanks for sharing. This kind of
real-world writeup really helps. And it makes me want to fire
up the Vette and test out my suspension some more.
<sigh> I need a vacation, just me and the
Vette!
-terry
_______

1977
Corvette L48 | 1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse Turbo | Corvettefaq.com

UKPaul
Senior
Member

1116 posts [100%]
Blackwater
Surrey

Re: VBP...I want to
chat....and anybody else that's into this suspension
stuff..... (clutchdust)

10:09
AM 10/24/2002

Clutchdust, thanks for the reply. I've never
heard anybody say anything bad about Bilsteins. There's a Koni
technical center about 10mins from where I live & they
once sorted out my rock hard/spine crusher bike shocks without
charge by swapping the springs to progressive ones. With
service like that I figured that I'd get a set for the Vette
& if they're too hard/soft then the solution is a 10 min
drive away. But, Koni don't seem interested in my custom so
maybe I'll just save up for some Bilsteins. The spreader bar
is a good point.
Gator (Hi!), good to see your post, I was
hoping you'd give a good explanation. I was only planning on a
couple of simple suspension upgrades this winter, but it's all
starting to snowball!!!

Dalannex
Senior
Member

2472 posts [100%]
Stockholm South
Dakota

Re: VBP...I want to
chat....and anybody else that's into this suspension
stuff..... (Gator81)

10:27
AM 10/24/2002

Hey Gator, thanks for the info. It sounds to me
like I want to get the same setup as you, or something
similar. What is your ride height to the fender lip? Do you
think that the transverse mounted front leaf is worth the
extra coin$$$$???? And what is your opinion of the dual mount
rear leaf??? Even if you haven't had any exposure to it, what
are your first thoughts at a glance? I want an upgrade, and my
ride height back, but am still willing to pay a little more if
it's a noticable upgrade for me.

BTW everyone, I have an 8 leaf rear spring. I should save it for ebay as a "limited
production run 8 leaf 1981 vette spring". I think somebody took a leaf out to lower
the car. I also think the front springs have been cut.

Gator81
Senior
Member

1510 posts [100%]
Ogden, UT
84403

Re: VBP...I want to
chat....and anybody else that's into this suspension
stuff..... (Dalannex)

10:59
AM 10/24/2002

I forgot to mention, I had to cut 2/3 of a coil
off the VB 460 lb/in springs to get the ride height right.
That surprised me, as they assured me that the springs would
not need cutting.

The new springs are a LOT shorter than the stockers, and
have fewer (but much thicker) coils. So, in theory, when under
normal load with a standard small-block, they should settle
down at the same height. But in my case, the old springs were
VERY tired, giving the car a "lowered" look, and I also have
aluminum heads and a few other lightweight pieces that result
in less load, so maybe that accounts for some of the excess
height. But I am still surprised that the springs had to be
cut.

It's still a little higher than I'd like, but I figured all
the new bushings might settle a bit. There's less than 1,000
miles on the whole suspension re-do right now, so I'll wait a
little while before I pull the springs out and cut another 1/3
of a coil.

BTW, it takes a helluva blade to cut those springs. Don't
waste your time with a hacksaw unless you want arms like
Ahhnold... I didn't want to use a torch and get them
hot, so I used my Tiger Saw (a.k.a., a Sawzall) and used up 2
brand new blades...

Sorry, can't remember the fender lip height, although I
must have measured it hundreds of times at all four corners as
I was deciding how much to cut off the springs and how to
adjust the rear spring bolts to get the ride height I wanted.
With the 255/60-15 Pirelli's, there's probably close to 2
inches of vertical clearance between the top of the tire and
the bottom edge of the fender lip, as measured at the top of
the arch. I'd like that to be more like 1 inch or mayb 1.25
inches. I like it to have a little "rake", with the front a
little lower than the rear, and right now it's damnear level.

Another BTW: the re-do included Bilstein Sport shocks,
again on recommendation of VB.

You know what the biggest grin factor was in all of this?
For the first time ever, I know what it feels like to drive a
new C3! Tight steering, tight suspension, no squeaks and
groans...

[edit] About the transverse front leaf, and the dual-mount
rear, I am sure that they would increase the handling
capability. But for where my money goes and for where my fun
comes from, I would not go that far. I think what I did
(springs, bars, shocks, brakes, bushings, steering linkage,
tires) cost me something like $3200. The transverse front and
dual-mount rear would have added another $800 or so. I'd
rather put the 8 bills into headers and true
duals...

[Modified by Gator81, 1:06 PM
10/24/2002]

clutchdust
Senior
Member

947 posts [100%]
Welcome to Fabulous Las
Vegas

Re: VBP...I want to
chat....and anybody else that's into this suspension
stuff..... (Gator81)

11:12
AM 10/24/2002

gator, i would agree with just about everything
you said. now, i don't have smart struts which could be
attributing to the snap over-steer i'm experiencing. i expect
that when i make that upgrade, the handling will change,
again. then i will have to learn the car all over. the thing i
noticed about the rear bar with solid links is how tight it
got in radical transisions. i didn't notice quite so much
during regular street driving but more on the auto-x course.
specifically in quick right-left-right situations like
slaloms. the way the car is now, it is very hard to balance it
at the edge. the track i do most of my track days at has some
substantial high speed turns, like back-to-back 260*
right/left turns. once i get the car in the drift, any more
gas and it pushes out, any less and the back wants to come
around. i'm not talking about alot of input either, very
little change (100rpm at the most!).
now this does nothing
for street driving. i'm also running about 1.5-2* negative
camber front and rear with neutral toe, makes the car really
"darty". not to mention the springs and the shocks rattle your
teeth. the car is very unpleasant to drive on all but the
nicest of streets. i need to replace the body mount cushions
and i have them, i just haven't done it yet.
again, i would
agree that moderate spring rates with larger bars is the best
compromise for a street car with modern handling capabilities.
i think the 460# fronts are excellent, you sit so far back
that the back spring is much more influential on your feeling
of harshness. for street, i would think the 300 or 330# spring
would be more than sufficient.
when i replace the rear
spring in mine and go to fiberglass, i'm getting that
adjustable one for the best compromise. i am curious to know
if this spring has some type of indicator as to the spring
rate for a given setting. does anyone actually have
this?

gkull
Senior
Member

4190 posts [100%]
383 road racer
nevada

Re: VBP...I want to
chat....and anybody else that's into this suspension
stuff..... (Dalannex)

1:18
PM 10/24/2002

Gator 81 has a good idea setup. The only thing
I would change or maybe he didn't mention it was spring end
sway bars. I also don't believe that the rear sway really
works throughout the whole verticle wheel travel. So i spaced
the frame mounting position down two inches.

My rear 3/4 sway is parallel to the ground with my car
sitting static.

No matter what you do it's tires and alignment settings
that determine how your car feels and ultimately how many
"G's" or how fast of laps you can do.

I have a lightened 79 Vette with 550/420 rear lbs springs.
I don't feel safe driving a stock vette
fast

73 LS-4
Senior
Member

1146 posts [100%]
Bethalto, IL

Re: VBP...I want to
chat....and anybody else that's into this suspension
stuff..... (Dalannex)

8:20
PM 10/24/2002

I'm really a rookie in this since I just got a
chance to try my setup out at an autocross this last Sunday. I
agree with others on the adjustable rear swaybar is a help,
I've got mine setup for a about a 1/4" give before applying
pressure, my front bar does have solid end links. No question
the Smart Struts with a good alignment are a deffinite
improvement over the stock struts, camber change is amazingly
minimal during suspension travel with that setup. Don't
overlook the Edelbrock IAS shocks as an option, I'm real happy
with mine, but they are pricey. I was extremely happy with my
setup at the last autocross, really makes me look forward to
what this thing may do when I put on a fiberglass rear spring
and some heavier coils in front, who said Big Block cars can't
handle

Pat Kunz
_______

73 LS-4 coupe, yellow metallic, M-21, 3.55 gears,
Mallory unilite conversion and coil, Mallory Hyfire IVc,
Taylor Spiro Pro wires, 68 L-36 aluminum intake, K&N &
extreme lid, Quad by Lars, 110gph fuel pump, 1 7/8 JET HOT
coated super comp headers and Flowmaster delta 50's, and SS
front brake lines, Crane Gold Race 1.7 Rockers, recurved
distributor, VB&P 1 1/4" front 3/4" rear sway bars,
VB&P Smart Struts, 16x8 T2's, P245/50ZR16 front.
P255/50ZR16 rear, Edelbrock IAS shocks, and Centerforce dual
friction clutch. IL a/v plate "4 SPDBB"

Step-Father's 86 Z-51 auto with 3.07's, Edelbrock IAS
shocks and Taylor wires.

73 LS-4
Senior
Member

1146 posts [100%]
Bethalto, IL

Re: VBP...I want to
chat....and anybody else that's into this suspension
stuff..... (gkull)

8:23
PM 10/24/2002

quote:

So i spaced the frame mounting position down two inches.

My rear 3/4 sway is parallel to the ground with my car
sitting static.

gkull, did spacing the swaybar down 2"s make a noticeable
difference?, just wondering since it seems like an easy thing
to try.

Pat Kunz

Dalannex
Senior
Member

2472 posts [100%]
Stockholm South
Dakota

Re: VBP...I want to
chat....and anybody else that's into this suspension
stuff..... (73 LS-4)

11:16
PM 10/24/2002

OK guys, I decided what I am going with. I am
getting the grand touring package, but am probably going with
the 330 lb. composite spring instead of the steel 9 leaf. This
should get what I want without going overboard on cost. Saves
me some money for the 200R4 that way. I've heard the pro's of the fiberglass
rear spring, what are the cons???? There must be some, and for
what I do, (99% wide open highway driving) would the steel 9
leaf do the job just as well as the composite, or would I gain
with the composite spring?????

I'm thinking you'll all get sick of my stupid questions
after awhile. Be patient, you're dealing with a
"research before you buy" person.

[Modified by Dalannex, 1:19 AM
10/25/2002]

Gator81
Senior
Member

1510 posts [100%]
Ogden, UT
84403

Re: VBP...I want to
chat....and anybody else that's into this suspension
stuff..... (Dalannex)

6:57
AM 10/25/2002

The only "cons" I'm aware of with the 'glass
spring are 1) sometimes they break; 2) they are sensitive to
heat.

About breakage: I have seen posts on this forum from a
believable guy who said he had 3 VB 'glass springs break, in a
row! That seems to me to have "installation error" written all
over it, but who can say?

About heat: easily dealt with through heat shielding.
Remember, Chevy hasn't put a steel leaf spring in a Corvette
since 1981. That's 22 years of 'glass rear springs. I don't
think there's a problem here.

Specifically on the '81 (mine), where the 4-speed car has a
stock steel 9-leaf (or 7-leaf with the optional suspension
package) you have a piece of sheet metal alread attached to
the center strut mount, serving as a heat shield. If you add
the Smart Struts, that old strut mount goes away, and you have
no place to attach the heat shield. But with a few minor
modifications, the shield can be attached to the two smaller
brackets that the new Smart Struts attach to.

I still think the 'glass spring has a ride smoothness
factor over a leaf spring, even if the rates are the same. And
don't forget, the steel spring weighs over 40 pounds, while
the 'glass spring weighs about 8.

gkull
Senior
Member

4190 posts [100%]
383 road racer
nevada

Re: VBP...I want to
chat....and anybody else that's into this suspension
stuff..... (73 LS-4)

9:09
AM 10/25/2002

73 LS4 I had to space the rear 3/4 bar down
because even with weight on the rear tires I couldn't bolt on
the end links. Even if you force it on it would never be
correct throughout the wheels travel.

I went down to the metal store and had them cut two 5 inch
blocks out of heavy wall 2X2 square tubing. I drilled the two
holesin each 2X2 then I just bought longer bolts to mount the
sway into the frame. All the local C-3 auto-X's use it because
it's such a good idea. I even sent pictures to VB&P
telling them to incorporate it in their sway
kit.

Dalannex
Senior
Member

2472 posts [100%]
Stockholm South
Dakota

Re: VBP...I want to
chat....and anybody else that's into this suspension
stuff..... (Gator81)

9:28
AM 10/25/2002

I think I had better look over my rear
suspension in relationship to where my exhaust runs. I have an
aftermarket exhaust system, so it may not run exactly where
stock did. I can't seem to picture where my pipes run right
now, I'll have to go look. You have me talked into the glass
spring, I think. I'll have to give vette brakes a call today
and order something up. Thanks guys.

-Justin

73 LS-4
Senior
Member

1146 posts [100%]
Bethalto, IL

Re: VBP...I want to
chat....and anybody else that's into this suspension
stuff..... (gkull)

7:14
PM 10/25/2002

Thanks for the info and pics gkull , looks like this might be a winter
project.

Pat Kunz

clutchdust
Senior
Member

947 posts [100%]
Welcome to Fabulous Las
Vegas

Re: VBP...I want to
chat....and anybody else that's into this suspension
stuff..... (gkull)

9:49
PM 10/25/2002

gkull, i'm confused. my bar was nearly parallel
to ground (angled slightly up front to back) before i lowered
the car. now that i lowered the car 1", it's still nearly
parallel (now slightly down front to back). is yours a factory
bar? mine is an aftermarket addco. do you think that is the
difference?

gkull
Senior
Member

4190 posts [100%]
383 road racer
nevada

Re: VBP...I want to
chat....and anybody else that's into this suspension
stuff..... (clutchdust)

8:27
AM 10/26/2002

Clutch dust. I'll send you a picture. With my
one inch block spacer. I tried both one and two inch and the
two is better. The real problem is the bindind with the
VB&P 3/4 rear sway. It was taken not long ago when i
destroyed the passenger side half shaft. While I was at it i
had the rearend refurbished along with new
U-joints

914eener
Senior
Member

73 posts [100%]
Charleston WV

Re: VBP...I want to
chat....and anybody else that's into this suspension
stuff..... (gkull)

5:05
PM 10/26/2002

When I got my 81 last winter it was a real
flexi flyer. The entire suspension, with the exception of the
rear monospring, was worn out and the car only had 27K
original miles. When I pulled the shocks you could literally
compress them with two fingers.

I had to decide how I was going to use the car. I knew I'd
use it mostly for street/touring and an occasional autox and
didn't want it set up bone rattling stiff. I'm used to the
suspension on Porsche's so the Vette had a long way to go.

If you read my signature you can see all of the suspension
changes I've made. The only thing I haven't changed/upgraded
is the rear spring because it works great with the rest of the
suspension. On the street the ride is firm, but well dampened,
with only slight oversteer when really pushing it or at an
autox.
_______

Jon M. Watkins
SCCA, PCA,
Rennlist, COA, NCCC, Mountain State Corvettes
1970
Porsche 914-6 - All numbers matching, PCA concours
winner
1976 Porsche 914 - Just for fun
1981 Corvette
- 30K actual miles, Charcoal Metallic with
silver leather interior, 4/02 repaint with Sikkens clear coat,
Mid America True dual exhaust - no cat - Flowmaster Delta
50's, K & N filter, MSD coil, Accel 8.8mm wires, Accel U
Groove plugs, Accel cap and rotor, replaced rear main seal,
replaced transmission rear seal, Bilsteins on all 4 corners,
VBP urethane front end rebuild kit, VBP 1 1/8" front sway bar
& urethane bushings, VBP Grand Touring front springs, VBP
urethane trailing arm bushings & stainless shims, VBP
urethane rear crossmember bushings, VBP urethane differential
bushing, replaced front differential seal, Spicer solid U
joints, VBP urethane rear spring cushions, VBP urethane spring
bolt kit, VBP 3/4" rear sway bar & urethane bushings, VBP
Smart Struts, 255/60/15 BFG T/A's
1996 LT4 Corvette
- 16K actual miles, Black with red
interior, completely stock

clutchdust
Senior
Member

947 posts [100%]
Welcome to Fabulous Las
Vegas

Re: VBP...I want to
chat....and anybody else that's into this suspension
stuff..... (gkull)

9:10
PM 10/26/2002

gkull, thanks for your address and everything

saw your pic but i am confused a bit
as to the position of the bar when the car is sitting static.
mine looks like that as well when the suspension is at full
droop. actually the bar prevents it from going to FULL droop.
but how does it sit on level ground? like i said before, as
mine sits right now it is almost parallel to the ground. is it
possible your endlinks are just shorter than mine causing this
non-parallel condition? am i right that you too are running an
aftermarket bar and yours isn't a factory with the hard point
mounts? you really have my curiosity up now. maybe i should
try something like that as well and see what kind of
difference it makes.

gkull
Senior
Member

4190 posts [100%]
383 road racer
nevada

Re: VBP...I want to
chat....and anybody else that's into this suspension
stuff..... (clutchdust)

6:19
AM 10/27/2002

Clutch dust I guess i just have to cruise down
to Vegas and see what your doing. The picture shows my big 2
inch spacers also. I will be down for the NHRA race fri &
sat.

clutchdust
Senior
Member

947 posts [100%]
Welcome to Fabulous Las
Vegas

Re: VBP...I want to
chat....and anybody else that's into this suspension
stuff..... (gkull)

8:20
PM 10/27/2002

gkull, i thought the NHRA races were this
weekend when are you coming down or have you
already? if your coming down later, I/M me and i'll give you a
phone number and we can go talk smack about who's faster.

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